Bootlegs and Secret Dealers.

[The Chris McKenna]

Hello again Nominoichi friends and fans,


Last time I did a post like this I think we had some good discussion, so this time I'd like to address two other issues that people have shared their concerns about, Bootlegs and Secret dealers.


'Bootleg'is a blanket term used to describe any fake, counterfeit, improperly, or unlicensed item. These items are not permitted to be sold in the Nominoichi. You can not sell, give away or even display any bootleg item.

It is the responsibility of the SELLER to insure that all their items are legitimate. This is your stuff on your table, it's not our job to inspect your items for you. All sellers are encouraged to do any required research into how to identify bootleg and counterfeit items. This will help to keep your table in compliance with the rules, as well as give you confidence when shopping for new items to rebuild your collections.


Now, let's discuss the ever present fear of secret dealers infiltrating the Nominoichi.

First let update our vocabulary. We are now using the term Vendors instead of Dealers. Vendors are shops or stores. They generally purchase merchandise from distributors and wholesalers and operate a business selling that merchandise to customers. Anime North has a HUGE area for vendors, and it's always busy in there.

Every year there is a fear that some vendors have decided to cheat the system and save money by taking a Nominoichi table. Although this possibility exists, some research will show the Nominoichi is not necessarily a cheaper alternative to the vendors hall; most would be far better off in there, than in here.

A Vendors booth costs $550, includes passes, and it is open for 22 hours all weekend. Therefore it's $25 per selling hour to operate.

Compare to a Nominoichi table. It costs $40, plus at least a Friday only Membership of $35. Therefore it's $18.75 per selling hour to operate. Yes, that's $6.25 cheaper, but that's only the minimum cost to operate. Adding even a second seller will bump the cost to $27.5 per selling hour.

Also nominoichi buyers expect all stuff in the room to be used. Some of the selling time will be spent bargaining and haggling over the price of every item that is priced as high as "new" items would be.

Additionally, while the Nominoichi is crowded, in total it's a tiny fraction of the number of people that visit the Vendor's hall all weekend.

In brief the Nominoichi is, by design, both a very poor and costly alternative to the Vendors hall. Thankfully, a large majority of vendors are smart enough to realise this.


... as always, we welcome your feedback and opinions.
and thanks for your interest in the Nominoichi.

[shadowlycan]

i think it is not just the seller who is responsible, but also the buyer to do their due diligence as well when it comes to buying things at the nomi (especially items that are very often sold as bootlegs or are very rare to find in the second hand market). Sometimes a seller may not know whether or not an item may be legit or not (perhaps they had it since they were a kid and was unaware of the concept of bootlegs, or became the second owner of the item)

In my opinion both parties should do their research when it comes to buying and selling any anime merch. if one or both parties is unsure they can always, ask the relevant questions to the seller before commiting, and search through legitimate sites and groups that have plenty of references to go by in terms of bootlegs and legit items.

tbh the same could be said for the dealer's room, so many vendors, so many bootlegs) however that is a whole other beast to tackle and this is a nomi forum.

Not really sure about the whole "secret dealers" thing, Every year when i go to nomi, i never really took notice as majority of the tables did look like things were used and/or NIB, (with the odd brand new item) and i always assumed that whoever was in charge of the event possibly did a once around the tables to ensure sellers were complying with the 50/50 rules. Im glad though that this year this issue is being addressed as it is unfair for people who want to get into the nomi to offload their items, are unable to because 1 or 2 sellers are "secret dealers" who didn't want to take the time or spend the money to sell their wares in the dealers/vendors room.

[darkinsanity13]

In the case of bootlegs, I've contacted a couple sellers via PM in the past to inform them that something they were selling was a bootleg. I given them all the benefit of the doubt, because like shadowlycan said not everyone is aware of what is and isn't a bootleg, especially if they've had it for years or they got it from someone else. From memory most of them have been gracious, but there have been one or two that kept the items in question up. In hindsight, I should have reported them because it wasn't fair to their potential buyers, but I didn't want to be known as a snitch (as I'm sure the sellers in question would know it was me since I contacted them beforehand) so I didn't say anything except to people who were interested in reserving the items.

That said, there have been bootlegs I've bought from the Nomi because I wasn't observant enough, and that's on me, so I agree with shadowlycan that it's on both buyers and sellers to be aware of the legitimacy of merchandise. There's plenty of information online for how to spot bootlegs; My Figure Collection has a database of anime/manga/game merch (mainly figures of course) and some pages will include warnings of counterfeits alongside example and comparison pictures, so that's a good start.

As for the subject of "secret dealers", I haven't really noticed anyone that could really fit that category (besides ones discussed in the previous "Brand New Items" thread), but then since I've always sold on my own up until now, I've never had the chance to really browse the Nomi so my observations are completely based on what's posted in the forums.

[shadowlycan]

May 3, 2018 12:28:05 GMT -5 darkinsanity13 said:

In the case of bootlegs, I've contacted a couple sellers via PM in the past to inform them that something they were selling was a bootleg. I given them all the benefit of the doubt, because like shadowlycan said not everyone is aware of what is and isn't a bootleg, especially if they've had it for years or they got it from someone else. From memory most of them have been gracious, but there have been one or two that kept the items in question up. In hindsight, I should have reported them because it wasn't fair to their potential buyers, but I didn't want to be known as a snitch (as I'm sure the sellers in question would know it was me since I contacted them beforehand) so I didn't say anything except to people who were interested in reserving the items.

That said, there have been bootlegs I've bought from the Nomi because I wasn't observant enough, and that's on me, so I agree with shadowlycan that it's on both buyers and sellers to be aware of the legitimacy of merchandise. There's plenty of information online for how to spot bootlegs; My Figure Collection has a database of anime/manga/game merch (mainly figures of course) and some pages will include warnings of counterfeits alongside example and comparison pictures, so that's a good start.

As for the subject of "secret dealers", I haven't really noticed anyone that could really fit that category (besides ones discussed in the previous "Brand New Items" thread), but then since I've always sold on my own up until now, I've never had the chance to really browse the Nomi so my observations are completely based on what's posted in the forums.

Tbh what i think you did was right, in letting people know about items being bootlegs and i don't think you should consider yourself a snitch for reporting a bootleg item on the  forum or at someone's table to the staff (since that is what they are there for). Because truth be told, if everyone was afraid of being a snitch just because they were doing the right thing and helping other buyers from buying bootlegs, that would just make those same sellers unafraid to bring their bootleg merch to sell at nomi. As many people both in and out of the forums have stated, it is people like you who have the eye/expertise/knowledge who are practically the first line of defence when it comes to reporting bootlegs to staff, because if no one does it, then nothing will deter sellers who knowingly sell bootlegs at nomi from having a table the next year or in the future. 

[darkinsanity13]

May 3, 2018 12:47:20 GMT -5 shadowlycan said:

May 3, 2018 12:28:05 GMT -5 darkinsanity13 said:

In the case of bootlegs, I've contacted a couple sellers via PM in the past to inform them that something they were selling was a bootleg. I given them all the benefit of the doubt, because like shadowlycan said not everyone is aware of what is and isn't a bootleg, especially if they've had it for years or they got it from someone else. From memory most of them have been gracious, but there have been one or two that kept the items in question up. In hindsight, I should have reported them because it wasn't fair to their potential buyers, but I didn't want to be known as a snitch (as I'm sure the sellers in question would know it was me since I contacted them beforehand) so I didn't say anything except to people who were interested in reserving the items.

That said, there have been bootlegs I've bought from the Nomi because I wasn't observant enough, and that's on me, so I agree with shadowlycan that it's on both buyers and sellers to be aware of the legitimacy of merchandise. There's plenty of information online for how to spot bootlegs; My Figure Collection has a database of anime/manga/game merch (mainly figures of course) and some pages will include warnings of counterfeits alongside example and comparison pictures, so that's a good start.

As for the subject of "secret dealers", I haven't really noticed anyone that could really fit that category (besides ones discussed in the previous "Brand New Items" thread), but then since I've always sold on my own up until now, I've never had the chance to really browse the Nomi so my observations are completely based on what's posted in the forums.

Tbh what i think you did was right, in letting people know about items being bootlegs and i don't think you should consider yourself a snitch for reporting a bootleg item on the  forum or at someone's table to the staff (since that is what they are there for). Because truth be told, if everyone was afraid of being a snitch just because they were doing the right thing and helping other buyers from buying bootlegs, that would just make those same sellers unafraid to bring their bootleg merch to sell at nomi. As many people both in and out of the forums have stated, it is people like you who have the eye/expertise/knowledge who are practically the first line of defence when it comes to reporting bootlegs to staff, because if no one does it, then nothing will deter sellers who knowingly sell bootlegs at nomi from having a table the next year or in the future. 

You're right, and that's why this year I decided that if I spot someone selling a bootleg and they keep it up even after I inform them, I'll be reporting them because it just isn't right. There hasn't been any problems like that so far, but I'm only one person and I'm hardly an expert at spotting bootlegs (plus I don't have the time or energy to go through everyone's list and images and double-check items I'm not already familiar with) so there may be some bootlegs out there that I'm not aware of.

[excelsells]

I haven't really noticed any tables that seemed to have vendor-tier stock, it still has the feel of a big fun garage sale, which I like a lot more than pushing and shoving one's way through the vendor block. But if there are vendors selling in Nominoichi, you know, at least they are showing up to claim their tables. Each year there are several empty tables that were presumably reserved but not claimed.

[mikan]

You can usually tell a bootleg from a Japanese authentic item by the copyrighted info. I've noticed there are a lot of wall scrolls out there (not necessarily at Nominoichi but on other selling sites) that are not legitimate. If it doesn't have copyright info on it, it's usually a bootleg. Laminated posters that usually have some number at the bottom corner are bootlegs too! I don't know about legitimate North American released items though.

So, far I've noticed one person (another person who was in question seems to have cleared up the issue) on the forum who probably should be in the dealer room. They are importing boxes of "brand new" items and selling them at for-profit prices like a dealer. They also seem to be selling online like a business outside of Nominoichi. I am not sure if anyone else noticed. They surely are not selling like a garage sale.

[rainbows]

May 3, 2018 16:18:18 GMT -5 mikan said:

. Laminated posters that usually have some number at the bottom corner are bootlegs too!

I saw so many of those laminated posters in the dealers alley last year (and I have a few of them on my walls too) I always thought that the number on the bottom was an order code or something. I'd never really given it a lot of thought; but I'll keep that in mind from now on!

[Istoria]

The issue of selling bootlegs should at least be abandoned within Nominoichi, because every year in AN Dealer's room I spot countless bootleg items lying around with ridiculous prices (with A LOT of posters using other artists' works/drawings without their consent/proper copyright recognition). That being said, in regards to Secret Dealers, my main concern was that those actual "dealers(or vendors now I guess)" coming to Nominoichi, buy things with good deals, and re-selling them at their booth at Dealer's room(now Vendor's hall?) for higher prices. There were few times where I've been skeptical by attending both Nomi and Dealer's room for several years...but oh well, who knows what's really going on.

My main concern this year, which also happens to be around for the past years that I participated in Nomi, is that what is the actual guideline for selling 'fanmade goods'? I know it clearly says for one of the rules that "homemade arts and crafts, all fan comics and drawings, and anything else that could be sold in the Comic Market or Crafter’s Corner will not be allowed at the Nominoichi.", but what about those 'second-hand' or 'used' fanmade goods like posters, can badges, and stickers? To be honest, I get the urges to sell some of my collection of fanmade goods every year, but from the reasons of a) copyright issues b) gaining profit from someone else's work c) probably very likely to have much lower prices which would de-value an artist's work, I have been holding back. This year in particular however, I don't know if it's just me, I see a lot of sellers either selling fanmade goods for low prices or giving it away as a freebie. I was originally going to PM this to Chris himself, but I guess I could put it up here for everyone's opinion? Let me hear your thoughts. 


+

There always could be a danger of a person selling too much of those 'used' fanmade goods, or some people 'pretending' to sell 'used fanmade goods' but are in fact their own works? Something to think about hmm

[libbyn]

To address the issues mentioned in the above comment: First off, I also have certain anxieties about dealers/vendors buying items from the Nomi and reselling them at higher prices in the Dealer's Hall. But there is no way to police this really.
Second, and more concerning, is the issue about fanmade items b/c I am selling a few (though for much less than their original price/shipping) and giving away fanmade stuff as freebies. I am doing this because I have a crapload of fanmade goodies, and I am doing a massive declutter of my collection this year. I don't want this stuff to go to waste. I don't want to box it up and and leave it in my basement when I know there are people who might enjoy it. I try to give most of the fanmade items away for free b/c it is uncomfortable for me to take money for them. However, there are other items (not artwork) that I have spent a loooooot of money on, but feel like they don't bring me the kind of joy anymore that they used to. I list those (very few in number) items for half their original price or less. I also make sure I am not giving away/selling any fanmade items at the Nomi if the artist is going to be selling at Anime North or is local. Honestly, the ethics around this is still a contestable area and we're still figuring it out because technically fanart and fanfiction are not exactly in line with intellectual property ethics. The best thing to do is be ethical about it, as much as possible. I don't see that if I order an item from an artist working in the Philippines for example, and they send me some free art with an artbook or charm, how my giving it away to someone here is going to devalue their work. I always try to highlight artist information even when I give away stuff to my friends etc to make sure the right person gets the credit. I see it as a matter of sharing things that would get no use at all, and promoting artists by including their store/twitter/insta info. If someone is selling handmade art/goodies as the ONLY thing at their table, that really should be a very obvious thing to point out, and I have not seen that at the Nomi yet that wasn't notified immediately.
If the moderators want to put a complete ban on fanmade items, I would respect it. But it kind of sounds like a waste of items that people can be enjoying and using as a way to get to know more artists. But that's my opinion at around 3 am. I hope I sound coherent >.<

[xDream3]

I understand both Istoria and libbyn's concern about fanmade goods being sold at Nominoichi.
As mentioned in the beginning, Nominoichi is a place to sell used official merchandise so personallyI don't think fanmade goods should be allowed.

But, I have seen a few tables selling or giving away fanmade items and I think it goes back to the artist who made them. I can understand why people would be selling past fanmade goods if they just have a bunch of them lying around (I do too stored away). Perhaps attaching the artist who made them would make it better to help promote the artist? However that would be a bit hard if the person doesn't remember who made it... a very complex problem that I can only see grow in the coming years unless it is addressed properly...

I have discussed with some of my artist friends (they don't sell at conventions unfortunately) about this matter of people selling past fanmade items they brought from artist alley. Their take is that it depends on the artists you got it from, some artists would be ok while others not as much. Their take is that fanmade items should be ok to sell (for a lower price in my opinion) if the print/charm/etc has already been retired by the artist (they are no longer selling it themselves) or they are not at the convention themselves as some artists might be from overseas. Anyways that is their take on it as artists~

Bootlegs as mentioned by someone else above should fall under both the vendors and buyers responsibility. I can perhaps understand if it was someone's first time selling at Nominochi since they just want to get rid of some goods they agot over the years. However, if it is someone who is coming back to sell they should know what is official and what is not after doing some research at least. There are some vendors that I find in the vendor's hall that also seem to be selling bootlegs items but as said above ... that is a whole different matter.

[excelsells]

I think if we get too strict about what can or can't be sold it will only hurt the morale of the event. Besides not selling food, as long as the majority of your table is official saleable items, I think it should be fine to sell a couple prints or pins or whatever on the side.

I also hope that bit about people reselling good buys from Nom at the vendor block isn't true cuz that is definitely a very scummy thing to do.

[The Chris McKenna]

Alright, once again we have some good discussion,only going a little off topic, but that's expected.


First: Bootlegs
Yes, it is very good practice for buyers to educate themselves about bootlegs. The Nominoichi recommends everyone should learn how to identify counterfeit merchandise.

The point is, it's not our staff's job to look over your merchandise and help you identify bootlegs and suspicious items. That responsibility is with the seller. Please think of this as your warning. Know what your are selling.


Second: Vendors
Should a vendor want to spend more per selling hour on a smaller Nominoichi table while making less money on fewer sales, they can. It's not strictly against the rules for a vendor to go through this hassle. The point is, most are smart enough not to.

About vendors buying nominoichi goods and then re-selling them in the vendors hall. I understand you are concerned about this, but I'm at a loss as to what steps we can take to solve this problem. What would you suggest that we do?


Third: Arts and Craft
Please do not forget that all fan made goods that could be on a table in either the Comic Market or Crafters corner are not permitted at the Nominoichi. There are no exceptions for limited amounts.


I think that's all for now. Should you have any more to say please let us know.

And, as always, thanks for your interest in the Nominoichi.

[shadowlycan]

May 6, 2018 9:04:08 GMT -5 The Chris McKenna said:

Alright, once again we have some good discussion,only going a little off topic, but that's expected.


First: Bootlegs
Yes, it is very good practice for buyers to educate themselves about bootlegs. The Nominoichi recommends everyone should learn how to identify counterfeit merchandise.

The point is, it's not our staff's job to look over your merchandise and help you identify bootlegs and suspicious items. That responsibility is with the seller. Please think of this as your warning. Know what your are selling.


Second: Vendors
Should a vendor want to spend more per selling hour on a smaller Nominoichi table while making less money on fewer sales, they can. It's not strictly against the rules for a vendor to go through this hassle. The point is, most are smart enough not to.

About vendors buying nominoichi goods and then re-selling them in the vendors hall. I understand you are concerned about this, but I'm at a loss as to what steps we can take to solve this problem. What would you suggest that we do?


Third: Arts and Craft
Please do not forget that all fan made goods that could be on a table in either the Comic Market or Crafters corner are not permitted at the Nominoichi. There are no exceptions for limited amounts.


I think that's all for now. Should you have any more to say please let us know.

And, as always, thanks for your interest in the Nominoichi.

im curious about the second point. If a vendor buys things from the nomi to sell, is it against the rules of the con to re-sell it in the dealer's/vendor's hall. I mean if they did spend their own money to purchase something at a "garage-sale" like event such as nomi, don't they have the right to re-sell it as they see fit as they would now be the owner of said item? 

[The Chris McKenna]

Correct. There’s no rule against doing that and I’m not sure what, if anything, could be done to prevent this. If people are concerned, please let us know what do you think we should do.